Just a few weeks into her new role as Minister of State with responsibility for Equality, Integration and Human Rights, the Green Party’s Mary White tells Catherine Reilly about her plans and priorities for integration
In the two months that you’ve been in office now, what priorities have you established in terms of integration?
My role will be to deal with, and make sure that, those new Irish who are legally resident here – that their experience of integration will be good – and also to deal with issues of equality and human rights as well.
I signalled... that I was going to set up a ministerial council on integration. I want to make sure we have a council, mainly made up of migrants, and I want to hear their views on living in Ireland – those who are legally resident here. It will be a forum with myself and 25-to-30 migrants – no press – but we will issue a joint press release afterwards about how the meetings went and the issues discussed.
We’ll have the first meeting in Dublin, we’ll have the second one maybe [somewhere else] in Leinster, then we’ll go to Cork, Galway and the northwest.
And you’ll be seeking applications?
Yes, I’ll be inviting applications; people can send in their CVs… [it is important to] know where the new Irish are coming from so we have a good balance in terms of ethnic backgrounds, and also gender balance. So we will then establish the council and I will chair those meetings right around the country and we’ll meet two or three times a year.
It will be a lot of meetings, because it will be five venues and we’ll be meeting two or three times a year. So I will be out there, listening very intently to people’s experience of integration.
The first Integration Minister Conor Lenihan did a lot of that – did he brief you?
He’s been very helpful, but he didn’t have time actually to set up the ministerial council. This is all part of Migration Nation, the prior statement on policy and integration, so this is my first initiative – to make sure this happens on the ground.
The second thing I’m going to look at is the pros and cons, and to look at best practice [in terms of] setting up perhaps a taskforce on integration, and maybe a commission as well with academics to advise me and members of the new Irish... we haven’t decided on either the taskforce or commission yet, but I’m looking to see what is the best method of maybe going about that.
One of the first things I had to do as minister within a couple of days [of taking office] was attend the funeral of Toyosi Shitta-bey. I met a large number of the family and friends and talked to his football mates, and very clearly heard a lot of stories about integration and how that community was adapting to life in Ireland... I’m keeping in close contact with the family, and the Garda liaison officer and working with the community out there.
I’ve also met a huge number of NGOs – there isn’t a minute to the day that I’m not out there reaching the groups. And I want to be seen as a reforming minister, I want to be seen as somebody who is not only listening but pushing the boundaries out in terms of portfolio to really fully understand what it’s like as a new Irish, or newcomer to Ireland, in Ireland in 2010.
You were referring to the situation concerning Toyosi Shitta-bey and his tragic killing. I know you can’t comment on that specifically, but you were quoted in The Irish Times as referring to ‘pockets of racism’. I’d be interested to know exactly how high you gauge the level of racism in Irish society?
Well as a new minister, obviously I’m listening to what people are telling me. I do know from the Equality Tribunal report, which I launched, and from the retiring director Melanie Pine that she did see a rise in incidences of... racism [claims under equal status legislation] in last year’s report.
And I have said on many occasions there is no room in Ireland for any overt or covert racism, whether it’s the very obvious graffiti on the wall with nasty slogans about the new Irish, or whether it’s the nudge-nudge, wink-wink and somebody just catches the end of the conversation or a look... and I want to make sure that this is a comfortable country in which to live and do business, whether you’re Irish or new Irish.
I’ve often said in the past couple of weeks that there is no black Ireland or white Ireland – there is Ireland. There is no old Ireland or new Ireland, there is Ireland, our country. And I want to make sure that everyone who is here can experience a sense of freedom, of participating in our communities right around the country.
So you think racism is a significant problem?
Well no, I’m not saying that. I’m listening to reports that have been carried out, and we know there was a court case in Tallaght recently, a young boy was fined €500 by the court for shouting racial abuse at somebody, and people sometimes say to me ‘Well nobody’s ever arrested’ – actually that case was brought to court, proven, and [the person] fined.
We know the case of the two Polish men who very sadly met a horrific death, and that case has gone through the courts now, sentence has been passed and a young man is now serving a life sentence.
You’d call that case racism?
Well, what I’m saying is, these are cases which we know – we don’t know whether they were racially motivated, but certainly we know that the people [attacked] weren’t Irish. I’m going to be very careful of the language here, but certainly we do know there are racist attacks here, people have rung me up in my constituency, people are e-mailing me, but it’s how to quantify that, it’s how to... [for example] in the school yard, if you’re a white child and you bump into somebody who is of another colour, is that racially motivated or is that normal horseplay? Maybe in the supermarket, somebody barges in front of you with a trolley – is that just plain rudeness or is it racially motivated? It’s hard to quantify that.
But I want to make sure this is a country that doesn’t tolerate it, and we do root out those pockets of racism. And I used my words advisedly, because there are pockets from what I’m hearing from NGOs and people I’m listening to very carefully, there are pockets of it, and I want to make sure those pockets don’t spread, I want to make sure those pockets are closed down.
So how will you do that?
I’ll be going out to schools, I’ll be speaking publicly, I’ll be meeting with the NGOs, with my integration council I’ll be listening to the voices – many voices from around the world – and I’ll ask them for ways to tackle it. Then I’ll consult with people in my own department, and I’ll send out a very strong signal that this is a country that won’t tolerate it - by my actions, by Government policy.
And I think a very good thing is a new educational intercultural strategy, which will [advise] teachers how to handle problems in school... particularly if you’ve got a lot of newcomers into your classroom, and in some schools, like Hartstown Community School and other schools out in west Dublin, there are large, large numbers of new Irish living there.
I’ve talked to some of those teachers and they said to me [a diverse class group] really raises an awareness in them of how to be an even better teacher, when you realise that you’ve a number of pupils in your class whose first language isn’t English, and you’ve got to teach, mindful of that. It does make teachers think about clarity of the message and clarity of the vocabulary. But I think with this new intercultural strategy, there will be greater support for teachers.
A lot of teachers have complained about the cutbacks in language support teachers. Is that something that has been raised with you, and can you do anything about that?
I was one of the negotiators for the revised Programme for Government, and I’ve been given to understand that where language support is needed, there is no cutback, absolutely not.
I had the great good fortune to go to Zaragoza to the European Ministerial Conference on Integration a couple of weeks ago, and every single one of those ministers said the key to successful integration is education, education, education... and other countries were saying that Ireland was almost textbook in the way we had coped with the numbers of migrants coming to work in Ireland during the Celtic Tiger years from eastern Europe, how we’d coped with migration and how we’d coped with people coming seeking asylum and who are now legally resident in Ireland.
Some of them were saying if they could bottle it, they’d like to bottle it – that we’ve dealt well with it, with no experience prior to a few short years ago. So I thought it was good on a European level to hear that.
Just regarding asylum seekers, you were quoted in The Irish Times as saying they should have the right to work. After what period of time?
Well look, I said very clearly in The Irish Times that was a personal view, and obviously I’ll be dealing many times with Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern, and that’s his portfolio. I was asked for a personal view and I gave it.
Regarding citizenship, you probably know that people are routinely waiting over two years to have their application assessed. Do you see part of your role as lobbying the Department of Justice to try and rectify that?
I don’t see myself as lobbying. I think we’ll work in partnership and I know our senior ministers who meet around the cabinet table – junior ministers don’t sit at cabinet, as you know – the senior ministers will be engaging with all the departments all the time talking about what bills are coming up, tweaking of legislation, concerns between the two coalition partners on various issues, it’s give and take and its reciprocal. So it’s not a case of lobbying, it’s working together, working for the best interests of the people.
Do you think that two years is acceptable as a waiting time for citizenship or long-term residency?
Of course anybody who’s waiting wants it to happen much more speedily. My understanding is that the wait is because there are so many applications to be processed, and we would all like to see a speedier process.
But I think that new provisions to try and speed up that process, as set out in the Immigration Bill, which aim to deal with any shortcomings in the system, should help reduce people’s waiting times.”
It’s a very big ministry, Justice, and a very complicated ministry, but we will certainly be working closely with Minister Ahern.
An English language test for citizenship applicants was mentioned in Migration Nation. Would you be in favour of that?
I was a migrant once, I went to live and work in Spain, and I remember not being very proficient in Spanish, and I remember the first few weeks, wondering whether I’d be able to buy the food in the supermarket... and thinking ‘God it’s quite lonely out here, I don’t have the linguistic and the verbal skills’.
One of the key things for successful integration is the ability to speak the host country’s language. I think it is absolutely imperative. And I know with myself, I just had to plunge in at the deep end and acquire that dexterity.
I think anybody who wanted to be a citizen would do a certain amount of learning to make sure they understand the country of which they want to become a citizen, to look at the history, understand the laws and the legislation... the language is key.
So a test would be a good idea, do you think?
Well I’m not saying a test, I’m just saying… I know if I was coming here now from another part of the world, the first thing I would do would be try and get up to speed with English – whether it’s through Fás or the vocational education programmes or Back to Education programmes in each local authority. Those courses are really booked up, and they are fantastic and many of them are free. And the Fáilte Isteach programmes, where volunteers come in and give language classes free of charge, chatting over coffee, talking about the weather... the daily chit-chat, and if you’ve the courage to do the daily chit-chat it becomes much easier.
What is your position on the deportation of individuals who are married to legal residents? This is, in many cases, an integration issue, as the spouses often have to give up work, college, etc if they have young families.
The issue is one of integration policy, but principally immigration policy. I do know that the current system concerning deportation decisions takes account of the family and domestic circumstances of the person in question, and Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects family life. It is important that the system takes such circumstances into consideration.
The current budget for integration for 2010, it’s just over €5m?
That’s right, €5.35m.
What is the plan for that?
Well I have had one preliminary budget meeting, just to see what’s in the kitty, and I’ll be drawing up plans on how to disperse those funds very shortly, with officials from the department. And I’ve got some good ideas that I don’t want to share with you just yet.
A very important issue that came up a couple of years ago was that of the Sikh man who wanted to join the Garda Reserve and wasn’t allowed to wear his turban as part of the uniform. What’s your position on that?
I remember that case actually... well, the Garda Commissioner made a decision about that, that there was one uniform for the gardaí and I respect that decision, and I think it was [then Integration Minister] Conor Lenihan who also supported the commissioner’s view at that time.
But I do welcome the gardaí’s approach to new entrants to An Garda Síochána. I think there are many [non-Irish] members now whether in training or who’ve passed out of Templemore, and that’s good, so that we could have an intercultural force here made up of people from all over the world.
I think the angle some of the media took was that it was perhaps disrespectful of the man’s faith beliefs, but the commissioner decided that An Garda Síochána’s uniform was there as a symbol of everybody being the same – like a school uniform – and that’s what happened.
The Metropolitan Police in London have designed a turban that incorporates their insignia and it doesn’t cause any fuss whatsoever. Do you think too much fuss was made?
Well they come from a different background too, [the UK having been a] colonial power and coming from the Common-wealth, so I don’t think you can compare the UK to Ireland... if people want to join up with An Garda Síochána, they know that’s the regulations. And I don’t think there’s been any unrest about that since that decision was made
But it effectively bars Muslim women from joining as well, as they wear the hijab.
Have there been applications?
I don’t believe so, I don’t know.
Well if that happens, we’ll have to come back and have another chat about that, but I don’t believe there have been any applications... the only application that I heard that hit the media was the incident of the Sikh gentleman, and I’m not even sure, did he go into the guards at all, what happened?
I think he’s taking it to the Equality Tribunal, he’s taking it further.
So no decision yet?
No I don’t think so. He is still pursuing it anyway.
Incidentally, I was down at the Sikh face in Ireland exhibition at the Chester Beatty Library – it was fantastic, I was so impressed with it, the photographs were stunning, absolutely stunning. We had a wonderful evening, wonderful food and music and these stunning photographs of the Sikh face in Ireland. I was delighted to go down and support that exhibition.
Regarding the Senate, the Taoiseach can obviously make appointments, and members of the Oireachtas can nominate people. Would you be encouraging the Taoiseach to consider somebody from a non-Irish background, once they have citizenship?
Anyone who is an Irish citizen can get elected to the Seanad. The Taoiseach also has his nominees. Actually if that’ll happen maybe next time around, I think it would be very good, I think it would be a very good inclusive signal to have as many different backgrounds in the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Obviously in the Dáil you’ve got to get elected; in the Seanad, you’ve got to get elected too but with the Taoiseach’s nominees – I think there are 11 – I think it would send a very good signal indeed, and perhaps that will happen after the next election.
Would you encourage him to do so?
Yes I would... they would have to be an Irish citizen.
You have made continuous reference to the ‘new Irish’. I’m just wondering, what exactly does that mean?
Well, new people who are non-Irish who have come to live here, people who are legally resident here at the moment, in my portfolio. Obviously there are people in direct provision [asylum seeker centres] waiting for a decision from the Department of Justice, but in my portfolio. And people say to me they are very happy with the words new Irish, or newcomers, or new learners, whatever people are comfortable with.
These are people from all over the world who are now legally resident in Ireland, and it will be my job as minister for integration to make sure that their experience of integration is positive.
I just want to say finally that my door is open, I’m a listening minister, I want to be a reforming minister and take on board what migrants are saying to us... when funds are scare I want to make sure that funding goes to those who most need it, and often those who most need it are those whose voices haven’t been heard. And I want to hear those voices.
Interview text edited for brevity
